Legislature(2003 - 2004)

02/27/2003 01:35 PM Senate TRA

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
                       ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                               
               SENATE TRANSPORTATION STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                       
                          February 27, 2003                                                                                     
                              1:35 p.m.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Senator John Cowdery, Chair                                                                                                     
Senator Thomas Wagoner, Vice Chair                                                                                              
Senator Gene Therriault                                                                                                         
Senator Georgianna Lincoln                                                                                                      
Senator Donny Olson                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
All Members Present                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATE BILL NO. 71                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to funding for transportation enhancement                                                                      
projects."                                                                                                                      
      MOVED CSSB 71(TRA) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS ACTION                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
No previous action to record.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Senator Ben Stevens                                                                                                             
Alaska State Capitol,                                                                                                           
Juneau, AK  99801-1182                                                                                                          
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of SB 71                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Jeff Ottesen,                                                                                                               
Acting Director Statewide Planning                                                                                              
Department of Transportation & Public Facilities                                                                                
3132 Channel Dr.                                                                                                                
Juneau, AK  99801-7898                                                                                                          
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SB 71                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Mr. James Armstrong,                                                                                                            
Manager of Transportation Planning and AMATS Coordinator,                                                                       
Municipality of Anchorage                                                                                                       
P.O. Box 196650                                                                                                                 
Anchorage, AK  99519                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports SB 71                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Ron Crenshaw                                                                                                                
428 W. 12th                                                                                                                     
Juneau, AK  99801                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposes SB 71                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Mr. James King                                                                                                                  
1800 Branta Rd.                                                                                                                 
Juneau, AK  99801                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SB 71                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 03-05, SIDE A                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   JOHN  COWDERY   called   the  Senate   Transportation   Standing                                                      
Committee   meeting  to  order  at  1:35 p.m.    Present  were  Senators                                                        
Olson,  Lincoln,   Wagoner  and  Chair  Cowdery.     Senator  Therriault                                                        
arrived  at  1:42  p.m.   The  business  to come  before  the  committee                                                        
was  SB  71.   Chair  Cowdery   invited  Senator   Stevens  to  join  the                                                       
committee and present SB 71.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
              SB 71-TRANSPORTATION ENHANCEMENT PROJECTS                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COWDERY   announced   a  committee   substitute   (CS)   had  been                                                       
prepared.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   WAGONER   moved   to   adopt   the  proposed   CSSB   71(TRA),                                                        
labeled version H.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
With   no   objection,   version   H   was   adopted   as   the  working                                                        
document.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   BEN  STEVENS   explained   that   CSSB  71(STA)   pertains   to                                                       
federal   funding    requirements    for   transportation    enhancement                                                        
projects.    Federal  law TEA-21  (Transportation    Equity  Act for  the                                                       
21st  Century),   and   its  predecessor,   ISTEA  (Intermodal   Surface                                                        
Transportation    Efficiency   Act),  mandate   that  states  expend   at                                                       
least  10 percent   of federal  Surface  Transportation   Program   (STP)                                                       
funds  on  enhancements  such  as  trails  and  landscaping.    Over  the                                                       
past  several   years,  the   State  of  Alaska  has   expended  amounts                                                        
well  beyond   the minimum   requirements   for  enhancement   projects,                                                        
funds  that   could  otherwise   be  applied  to  roadway   construction                                                        
and  improvement   projects  across  the  state.    CSSB  71  (TRA)  will                                                       
help  correct  the  allocation   of federal  highway   money  and direct                                                        
the  Department   of  Transportation   and  Public  Facilities   (DOTPF)                                                        
to  use  funds   for  road  construction   projects   and  maintain   the                                                       
amount   of  funding   for  the  trail   enhancement   programs   at  the                                                       
minimum required by the federal mandate.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
The  first  section  of  the CS  addresses  the  Trails  and  Recreation                                                        
Access  for  Alaska  (TRAAK)  Program.    TRAAK  was  established   under                                                       
Administrative   Order  161  in  1996 by  the  prior  administration   to                                                       
address   features  such  as  trails,   scenic  highways,   recreational                                                        
access points and interpretive facilities.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   STEVENS   referred   committee   members   to   the  following                                                        
spreadsheet included in members' packets.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
        Comparison of Minimum TE (Transportation Enhancements)                                                                  
     Expenditures Required Under Federal Law, and Total Level of                                                                
                   TRAAK Project Funding 1998-2003                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
      TE Apportionment TE+Match   TRAAK Program                                                                                 
1998 4,772,972         5,303,302  17,283,000 Original 1998-2000 STIP                                                          
1999 5,928,128         6,586,809  25,982,300 1998-2000 STIP Amendment 11                                                        
2000 6,777,172         7,530,191  28,444,000 1998-2000 STIP Amendment 23                                                        
2001 7,383,072         8,203,413  27,975,000 Original 2001-2003 STIP                                                            
2002 7,586,952         8,429,947  28,397,100 2001-2003 STIP Amendment 6                                                         
2003 6,490,029         7,211,143  22,096,200 2001-2003 STIP Final Amendment 17                                                
                       43,264,806    150,177,600                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
*2003 TRAAK Program was reduced approximately $9 Million in                                                                     
January 2003 per a Best Interest Finding from Acting                                                                            
Commissioner Barton.  This funding was added to the CTP program.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEVENS explained the spreadsheet as follows:                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
      So if  you  look  at  this,  the  TE  apportionment   is  the                                                             
      minimum  requirement   under   federal   - under   the  ISTEA                                                             
      and  TEA-21  requirement   -  plus  our  match  is  what  the                                                             
      state,  what   we  should   have  spent.     And   the  TRAAK                                                             
      Program  is   the  amount  that   was  spent   on  the  TRAAK                                                             
      Program  period,  not  on  STIP  (Statewide   Transportation                                                              
      Improvement    Program)    or   not    on   CTP   (Community                                                              
      Transportation     Program)     programs    or    individual                                                              
      projects   that   also   have   a  trail   enhancement    and                                                             
      landscaping   put  into  the  individual   project  as  well.                                                             
      So this  first   section  of  the  bill  addresses  the  fact                                                             
      that  while  the  minimum  match  for  the  statewide   money                                                             
      was $43  million,  we  have in  fact  spent $150  million  on                                                             
      trail  enhancement    and  TRAAK  programs   over   the  last                                                             
      five years.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COWDERY asked Senator Stevens to explain TRAAK.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   STEVENS  explained   TRAAK  is  acronym  for  the  Trails   and                                                       
Recreation   Access   for  Alaska   Program.   It  was   established   by                                                       
administrative    order  in  1996  by   the  prior  administration.    He                                                       
believed  the  regulations   were  approved  in  2002.  He stressed   the                                                       
TRAAK   Program   is   in   addition   to   the  requirement    of   each                                                       
individual   road  construction   project  funded  by  highway  money  to                                                       
have   sidewalks,   bike   trails,   pullouts,    landscaping   and   set                                                       
asides built.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   STEVENS  clarified   Section   1(a)  of   the  bill  specifies                                                        
that  no   more  than  four   percent   of  the  federal   highway   non-                                                       
restricted   apportionments    can  go  towards   TRAAK.    The  current                                                        
funding  is  eight  percent  and  four  percent  is  more  in  line  with                                                       
the federal minimums.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS   explained  Section   1(b)  addresses  the  allocation                                                        
of  the  four  percent  removed   from  the  TRAAK  apportionment.     He                                                       
referred   to  the   chart   entitled   "Distribution    of  Federal-Aid                                                        
Transportation     Formula   Funds    Per   17   AAC   05.155-200"    and                                                       
explained   the CTP  and  the  TRAAK  moneys  are  split  between   AMATS                                                       
(Anchorage    Metropolitan     Area   Transportation     Study),    FMATS                                                       
(Fairbanks    Metropolitan   Area   Transportation    Study),   and   all                                                       
other  state  and  local   needs.    The Alaska   Highway  System   (AHS)                                                       
and  National   Highway   System  (NHS)  are   dedicated  monies.     The                                                       
money  resulting  from  reducing  the  TRAAK  to four  percent  would  go                                                       
into  the  CTP  and  increase  the  money  available   for AMATS,   FMATS                                                       
and  other  state  and  local  needs  by four  percent.    The  money  is                                                       
shifted    from   trails   and   enhancements     into   programs    that                                                       
construct   roads   to  meet   the  backlog   of  local   and  statewide                                                        
transportation needs.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COWDERY  asked  why four  percent  would  be  going  into the  CTP                                                       
program.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   STEVENS  replied   CSSB  71(TRA)   brings  the   appropriation                                                        
more   in   line  with   the   federal   minimums    and  leaves    money                                                       
available   for  the current   TRAAK  Program.  The  intent   of Section                                                        
1(a)   and   (b)   is  to   make   more   money   available    to   local                                                       
municipalities   for  construction   of  roads  versus  construction   of                                                       
trails.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COWDERY   asked  him  to explain   the  Anchorage  and  Fairbanks                                                        
numbers.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   STEVENS  said  they   are  addressed  in  Section   1(c).    He                                                       
referred   to  the  chart   entitled,   "Comparison   of  the  Anchorage                                                        
Metropolitan   Area  Transportation    Solutions  (AMATS)   Enhancements                                                        
Allocation at 10 percent and 15 percent."                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  LINCOLN  asked  for  clarification   and asked  if  he wants  to                                                       
reduce  the  non-restricted    federal  aid  highway  money   from  eight                                                       
to four percent.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEVENS replied, "Under the TRAAK."                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  LINCOLN   asked  if  he was  referring   to the  eight  percent                                                        
part of the pie chart labeled TRAAK.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEVENS answered that was correct.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  LINCOLN   said  Senator  Stevens   is reducing   TRAAK  to  four                                                       
percent   and  saying  that  increases   the  availability   for  AMATS.                                                        
If  the TRAAK  pie  gets  reduced  it  seems like  the  other  pie  would                                                       
get smaller.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS   said  she could  look  at  it  that  way  but instead                                                        
of  having   41  percent  made  up  of  eight   percent  TRAAK   plus  33                                                       
percent   CTP,  the  41  percent  would  be  made  up  of  four  percent                                                        
TRAAK  plus  37  percent  CTP.    He  explained  the  pie  does  not  get                                                       
smaller;   it  just  changes  where   the  funds  come  from   and  makes                                                       
money   available   for   the   CTP  program   instead   of   the   TRAAK                                                       
program.  It  does  not shrink   the 41  percent;  it  just  states  that                                                       
more than four percent cannot be spent on TRAAK.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  WAGONER   interjected,   "It's  just a  reallocation   of  funds                                                       
within the same funding base."                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEVENS agreed.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR LINCOLN said she was still a bit confused.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   STEVENS   agreed   it   is  confusing.      He   added  he   is                                                       
convinced  it  was made  to  be confusing  so  people  who  do not  spend                                                       
their  lives   learning  these  funding   mechanisms   don't  understand                                                        
it and  therefore  the  people  that  write  the regulations   can  spend                                                       
the money as they see fit.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  LINCOLN   asked  if  that  smaller  pie  represents   funds  for                                                       
the local municipalities.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   STEVENS   explained   the   CTP  program   is   the  Community                                                        
Transportation     Program,   which    addresses    a  wide    range   of                                                       
community   transportation   modes  including   rural  and  urban   roads                                                       
and  transit.   The  CTP  represents   an agreement   amongst  all  those                                                       
user   groups.   AMATS   and  FMATS   are   federally   chartered    MPOs                                                       
(Metropolitan   Planning   Organizations)    and  have  the  ability   to                                                       
utilize  that  money  as  they  see  fit  without  DOTPF's  input.    The                                                       
other 61.7 percent is for programs that fall under the STIP.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   LINCOLN   said   she   understood   the   CTP  and   the   area                                                       
represented   by the  CTP  on  the chart.    If  the TRAAK  is  cut  back                                                       
and  those  funds  are  moved  into  the  CTP,  the  total  is  still  41                                                       
percent.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEVENS said that is correct.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   LINCOLN  asked  what  difference   it  makes  where   the  four                                                       
percent goes when the 41 percent is brought down to AMATS.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEVENS said that ties into Section 1(c), which reads:                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
      (c) Not  more  that ten  percent  of  the funds  provided  to                                                             
      a   municipality    for   participation     in   federal-aid                                                              
      highway  or   other  eligible   projects   may  be   expended                                                             
      from the  transportation   enhancement   apportionment   over                                                             
      the life of a transportation improvement program.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEVENS referred back to the comparison.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     Comparison of the Anchorage Metropolitan Area Transportation                                                               
      Solutions (AMATS) Enhancements Allocation at 10% and 15%.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
      Total AMATS                                                                                                               
      Allocation Actual         15%           10%                                                                             
2000 $35,700     $5,400     $5,355     $3,570                                                                                   
2001 $38,850     $6,375     $5,828     $3,885                                                                                   
2002 $35,900     $5,200     $5,385     $3,590                                                                                   
2003 $42,850     $9,015     $6,428     $4,285                                                                                 
Average          $6,498     $5,749     $3,833                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2004 $56,270     $8,752     $2,814     $5,627                                                                                   
2005 $57,251                $9,090     $5,725                                                                                   
2006 $59,276                $8,305     $5,927                                                                                 
Average                     $6,736     $5,760                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
*in millions of dollars                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
He  said  AMATS  has  approved   and  adopted  a  three-year   plan.  The                                                       
first  column   represents   the  total  AMATS   allocation   of  the  41                                                       
percent.    The second  column   is the  actual  amount  of  money  AMATS                                                       
expended  on  transportation   enhancement   programs.  AMATS  adopted  a                                                       
policy    in   1998   to    spend   15   percent    on   transportation                                                         
enhancements;   the  federal  minimum  requirement   is 10  percent.  The                                                       
15  percent,   as  per  AMATS  policy,   is  represented   in  the  third                                                       
column.  The  last column  is  what  the 10  percent  requirement   would                                                       
have  been.  The  totals  for  the  years  2000  through  2003  show  the                                                       
actual  expenditures   averaged  $6.4  million  per  year.   That  number                                                       
exceeded  the  15  percent  in  the  AMATS  plan,  which  averaged   $5.7                                                       
million.    The  10  percent  federally   mandated  minimum   would  have                                                       
averaged $3.8 million.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   STEVENS   said  the  Municipality    of  Anchorage   explained                                                        
that  the anomaly   of $9  million  was  due to  the  cost to  start  one                                                       
of the big projects at Ship Creek.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS   explained  the  second  portion  of  the  spreadsheet                                                        
ties  into the  CTP  pie.   The AMATS  plan  for 2004  through  2006  was                                                       
renegotiated   and  Anchorage  received   an increase   from  22 percent                                                        
to  27.8   percent.   If  AMATS   spends   15  percent,   they  will   be                                                       
spending   more  money  than  in  the  past.  He  pointed   out  if  this                                                       
legislation   is  adopted,  there  will  still  be  an  average  of  $5.7                                                       
million    per   year   available   for   transportation     enhancement                                                        
programs, which the community has come to expect and enjoy.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
He  said   that  transportation    enhancement   programs   should   stay                                                       
within   the  standard   of  the  federal   government   and  allow   the                                                       
extra  money  received   through  the  CTP  to be  used  to  address  the                                                       
critical  backlog   of transportation   projects.    He  stated  that  is                                                       
the intent of CSSB 71(TRA).                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:55 p.m.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   THERRIAULT   pointed   out  the  committee   is  discussing   a                                                       
proposed  CS  and  he understood   that  Fairbanks  had  concerns   about                                                       
the  original  bill.  He  asked  what  concerns  were  addressed  in  the                                                       
CS.                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS  said  the  original  concern   was the  fact  that  the                                                       
CTP  would  shrink.  Directing   the  four  percent  back  into  the  CTP                                                       
and maintaining the 41 percent addressed that concern.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT   clarified  the  bill will  limit  the  amount  that                                                       
can  be  spent  on  trails  out  of  one  portion   and  also  limit  the                                                       
amount local communities can spend on trails.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS   agreed  that  is the  intent.    The  money  would  be                                                       
used  for  roads  and would  limit  the  allocation  for  trails  to  the                                                       
national standard.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COWDERY   added  it would   cut it  back  to  the  intent  of  the                                                       
federal legislation.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT   noted  on the  AMATS  comparison  spreadsheet   for                                                       
2004  the ten  percent  column  says  $5.6  million  and the  15 percent                                                        
says $2.8 million.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   STEVENS  agreed   there  was  a  mistake   and  explained   the                                                       
number should be 15 percent of the total.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT asked if only one number needs to be changed.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEVENS said it probably affects that whole average.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  WAGONER  estimated   it  would be  $7.9  million.    He said  it                                                       
would not make any difference on the pie chart.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  JEFF  OTTESEN,   Acting   Director,   Statewide   Planning,   DOTPF,                                                       
said  this   bill  does  a  very   good  job  of  asking   an  important                                                        
policy  question,   that being:    What  is the  right  amount  to  spent                                                       
on  trails,   waysides   and  other   amenities   as  opposed  to   funds                                                       
spent  on  highways?    He  said  the  same  question   has been   raised                                                       
internally   by  DOTPF  over   the  past  few  months.   The  background                                                        
that  Senator   Stevens   gave  was  very  accurate   and  complete.   He                                                       
referred   to the  "Alaska   TRAAK  Program"  packet,   which  contained                                                        
the  pie chart  Senator  Stevens  had  discussed  and  said  he intended                                                        
to go over the high points page by page.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COWDERY   informed   committee   members  that   Senator  Stevens                                                        
worked with DOTPF on this issue.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said they worked together extensively.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  explained   the TRAAK  policy  was  established   in  1995.                                                       
The   Executive   Order   was   passed   in  1996.   DOTPF   began   this                                                       
programming   as   a  matter   of  state   policy  at   that  time.   The                                                       
regulation    was   enacted   in   March   2002.    The  Transportation                                                         
Enhancement    Program   is  required   by  federal   law   and  is   ten                                                       
percent  of  one  of  the  slices  of  money  the  state  receives   from                                                       
the  federal  aid  program,  not  ten  percent  of the  entire  program.                                                        
Former Governor Knowles enacted the TRAAK program.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  said there  are  slight  differences   between  the TE  and                                                       
TRAAK  but  asked   the  committee,   for  the  purposes   of  today,  to                                                       
consider   them   essentially   the   same  thing.   TE   is  a  federal                                                        
requirement   and  TRAAK  is  a state   name  for  what  the  TE program                                                        
intends   to  do.   The  required    minimal   spending   level  is   ten                                                       
percent  and  applies  to that  one  category.  He  thought  this aspect                                                        
of  TE has  been  misunderstood   over  the  years.  Many  people,   both                                                       
internal   and   external   to   the  department,    misapply   the   ten                                                       
percent  rule.  The  TE sub-category   was  created  in 1991  with  ISTEA                                                       
and  provided  substantially   more  money  than  the  state  is getting                                                        
today.   The  STP (Surface   Transportation   Program)  was  quite  a bit                                                       
larger  so  the ten  percent  was  also  larger  than  it is  today.   In                                                       
1997,  when  TEA-21  was  enacted,   the STP  category   shrank  and  the                                                       
state  received  the  money  in  other  apportionments.    The  fraction                                                        
of  money  the state  had  to  spend  on  TRAAK  or TE  shrank  by  about                                                       
$10 million.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   THERRIAULT   said,  "Due  to  federal   action,  the  category                                                        
that you multiply by the ten percent shrunk."                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN   agreed  and  pointed   to  the  multi-shaded   pie   chart                                                       
entitled,   "Federal   Apportionments   FFY  '02."     Three  categories                                                        
near  the  lower  left  are  named  MG  or Minimum   Guarantee,  Minimum                                                        
Guarantee Exempt and Minimum Guarantee Special.  He explained:                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
      In   the   process   of   adopting    a   federal   bill,   a                                                             
      reauthorization   of the  Transportation   Act,  they  shrank                                                             
      the STP  bucket  with  respect  to states  like  Alaska,  but                                                             
      then  we made  it  up  in  the  minimum  guarantee   buckets.                                                             
      And so  we  were  held  whole  as a  state  in  terms  of the                                                             
      amount  of money  we were  getting  but  that  STP slice  got                                                             
      quite  a bit  smaller  and  that  effectively   reduced  what                                                             
      we had  to spend  on  TE, that  minimum  amount.  Now  if you                                                             
      apply  that  10  percent  rule  in  2002,  it  is  about  2.5                                                             
      percent  of  the  total  pot.  I would  like  to  have  given                                                             
      you  2003  or  2004  data.   We  actually  don't   have  that                                                             
      information  yet.  It's  been  a  long time  getting   a 2003                                                             
      authorization. It just got passed about ten days ago.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS  asked  if  Mr.  Ottesen  was  saying  the state  TE  is                                                       
2.5 percent.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  replied,  "I have  just  said,  how big  is the  TE slice?                                                        
TE is  ten percent   of STP.   If I  say, how  big  is that  fraction  of                                                       
the entire pie, it is about 2.5 percent."                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS  asked  if  the  only  real  funding  mechanism  is  the                                                       
STP.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN   said  that  is   correct.  He  explained   the   state  is                                                       
currently   required  to  spend  about  2.5  percent  of  the  total  the                                                       
state receives on TRAAK or TE.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN continued by saying:                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
      I  can't   talk   about   this  without   telling    you  how                                                             
      popular  this  program   is.   It's  tremendously    popular.                                                             
      Anecdotally  you  go  into  communities   and they  just  had                                                             
      a TRAAK  Program  installed  or  a major  trail,  that's  all                                                             
      they  talk  about.    They  don't  talk  about  the  road  we                                                             
      did,  they  talk  about  the  trail....    Though  there's  a                                                             
      huge  policy   question   in  play  here,   this  is  a  very                                                             
      popular  program.    It  has  other  benefits  from  time  to                                                             
      time, it can be important...                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   WAGONER  interjected    that  it  is  popular   among  certain                                                        
portions of the district and told members:                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
      When  I'm out  campaigning,   it's  not  very  popular  among                                                             
      a big  percentage   of  the  constituents   that  I  see  who                                                             
      are asking   me why  we're  building  a  bike  trail  between                                                             
      Soldotna  and  Kenai  when  the  rest  of  our roads   in the                                                             
      district   are  falling   to   pieces.   I  just  wanted   to                                                             
      clarify that.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:05 p.m.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN   said   he  understood.   He   offered   an  example   that                                                       
included  pictures   of the  Kasilof  River  wayside,  a section  of  the                                                       
road  where  a lot  of  families  park  their  cars  on  a narrow   piece                                                       
of  shoulder  and  fish.   Traffic  turns  in  and out,  including   RV's                                                       
and  boats,  and cars  travel  at  60 miles  per  hour  all  on the  same                                                       
small  piece  of  pavement.   He said  these  funds  really   do address                                                        
urgent  needs  at  times.   The funds   have  been  used  to  build  many                                                       
waysides and rest stops that the tourism industry has needed.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS   said  he appreciated   the  cooperation   Mr. Ottesen                                                        
had  given   his  office.  He  asked   if  the  piece  of  highway   that                                                       
crosses  the  Kasilof   River  had  recently  been  through   an upgrade                                                        
or an improvement plan.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  explained   the  wayside  project   at the  Kasilof   River                                                       
presented was scored under the TRAAK Program.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS  asked  if  this project   would have  qualified   under                                                       
the  regular   highway   improvement   program.   He   noted  a  12-mile                                                        
piece  of  highway  over  the  Sterling  River  Bridge   is going  to  be                                                       
improved   and widened   under  the  normal  STIP.    He  asked  if  this                                                       
pullout  would   have  qualified  under  that  program   and  whether  it                                                       
would   have   fallen   under    the  STIP   of   the   normal   Surface                                                        
Transportation Program.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN   said  it  is  quite  likely   it would   have  qualified.                                                        
The  federal   rules   are  very   flexible   and  waysides   and   major                                                       
trails  have  been  coded  to  NHS  as  an  NHS project   and  are  never                                                       
accounted   for  under  the  TRAAK  number  that  Senator  Stevens   gave                                                       
earlier.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS   asked  if there  is  anyway  legislators   could  find                                                       
out  how much  money  has been  spent.  He  said there  are  two funding                                                        
mechanisms:   one  is  the  actual   independent   highway   improvement                                                        
project   and  the  enhancement    cost  would  be   buried  within   the                                                       
total  cost  of  the  project;   the  other  mechanism   is through   the                                                       
TRAAK Program.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COWDERY   said  these   pictures  show   roads  but  many  trails                                                        
have   been  built   in  different    parts  of   Alaska   for  whatever                                                        
reason.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS   said  Mr.  Ottesen  provided   the committee   with  a                                                       
list  of  the TRAAK  projects   for  the last  six  years.    He pointed                                                        
out  that the  projects  varied  and  included  ski  trails  and walking                                                        
trails.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COWDERY  said  his  point  is they  are  not  necessarily  beside                                                        
a road.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said that is correct.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COWDERY  said  the  trails  next  to  a road  are  one  thing  but                                                       
there are trails that do not even connect with the roads.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   WAGONER  pointed   out  the  pictures  of  the  highway   along                                                       
the  Kasilof  River   were  reversed.    One  shows  the  highway   going                                                       
north  and  the  other  picture  shows  the  highway   going  south  just                                                       
after crossing the bridge. He added:                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
      I'm glad  to  see  it's being  taken  care  of  because  this                                                             
      is an  accident  waiting   to happen.    What  congests  most                                                             
      of  this  most  the  time,   this  is  the  launching   place                                                             
      where  the guides   launch  their  drift  boats  everyday  of                                                             
      the  summer  to  fish  on  the  Kasilof  River   and  there's                                                             
      just  not  enough  space  to  accommodate   that  so you  may                                                             
      still  have  a  problem  when  you  get  through   with  this                                                             
      project if that isn't addressed.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  said  he was  correct.  He  affirmed  this  is  an example                                                        
where  a  wayside  would  truly  be  a  safety  project  as  well  as  an                                                       
amenity  and  would  solve  the  problem  of  people  crossing  the  road                                                       
and  children  getting   out  of cars  while  vehicles   are  passing  at                                                       
high speeds.  He agreed it is an accident waiting to happen.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   THERRIAULT   said   shrinking   down   the  TRAAK   would   not                                                       
necessarily   preclude  this  type of  project  because  it  can be  done                                                       
under  the   regular  surface   transportation    projects   as  part  of                                                       
reworking the highway or it could be a separate safety project.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN said absolutely. He pointed out:                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
      Fundamentally,   there  is  a  lot  of  flexibility   in  the                                                             
      federal  rules   and,  quite   frankly,  you   just  need  to                                                             
      have  a  program   that  is  looking   out  for   the  public                                                             
      interest  and  somehow  making  the  right  decision.    As I                                                             
      indicated   earlier,   we're   spending   an  awful   lot  of                                                             
      money  on TRAAK.   There  are,  as you'll  see  elsewhere  in                                                             
      the   presentation,    there's    some   pretty    darn   big                                                             
      pressing  needs  all  over  the state  and  so  that's  why I                                                             
      started   out  by  saying   there's   an   important   policy                                                             
      decision here.  What is the right balance?                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
      Commissioner  Barton,   as you  will see  in  a few  minutes,                                                             
      has  already  started   to  reduce  the  size  of  the  TRAAK                                                             
      Program  to  the  extent  that  he  could  midway  through  a                                                             
      fiscal  year  and has  already  indicated   that  he will  be                                                             
      programming    at    approximately    this    number,    four                                                             
      percent,  as a  matter  of his  discretion   as commissioner                                                              
      as  early  as  '04.    But  at  the  same  time  we  will  be                                                             
      trying  to do  projects  like  this  that  are  just  vitally                                                             
      important.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  continued   with  his  presentation.    He  referred  to  a                                                       
chart in the packet.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
                     TE Required vs. Actual TRAAK                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
TE Minimum                                   TRAAK Program                                                                  
'98        $5.3                              '98        $17.3                                                                   
'99        $6.6                              '99        $25.9                                                                   
'00        $7.5                              '00        $28.4                                                                   
'01        $8.2                              '01        $28.0                                                                   
'02        $8.4                              '02        $28.4                                                                   
'03        $7.2                              '03        $30.2 Original                                                          
                                             '03        $22.0 Amended                                                           
Dollars in millions                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
He  pointed  out  the  actual  TRAAK   expenditures   have  been  3 to  4                                                       
times  the minimum   required.   The  bottom  of the  right  hand column                                                        
shows   the  original   TRAAK   budget   for   '03  is  $30.2   million.                                                        
Commissioner   Barton  signed  an amendment   to that  STIP  and reduced                                                        
the   program   by  $8   million.   That   is  about   as   low  as   the                                                       
department   could   take  the  budget   without   taking  jobs   out  of                                                       
contractors' hands.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COWDERY  asked  the  total expenditures   for  the TRAAK  Program                                                        
from the last STIP.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  said   these  are  the  program  amounts   but  offered  to                                                       
get  the  actual  amounts  because   projects  sometimes   cost  more  or                                                       
less than the programmed amount.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COWDERY asked if he had a general amount.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN   said  it  is  very  close  to  the  $88  to  $90  million                                                        
shown  on the  chart.    It was  close  to $28  million  three  years  in                                                       
a row.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COWDERY  asked  if  he though   that number   coincided  with  the                                                       
federal requirements.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  answered   no,  those  numbers   are  shown  to  the  left.                                                       
The   federal   requirement    would   have   been   approximately    $24                                                       
million   in  the  same   time  period.     The  state   was  definitely                                                        
spending more than is federally required.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   COWDERY   asked   Mr.   Armstrong    if  the   Municipality    of                                                       
Anchorage supports the bill.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  JAMES   ARMSTRONG,    manager   of  Transportation    Planning   and                                                       
AMATS   Coordinator,    Municipality    of   Anchorage,   said   he   was                                                       
speaking   on   behalf   of   the   mayor   and   as   the   manager   of                                                       
Transportation   Planning.    He stated  the  mayor  supports  the  bill.                                                       
He  pointed  out the  mayor's  letter  addressed  the  previous  version                                                        
and Mr. Armstrong had just received the CS.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   LINCOLN  asked   if  the  municipality    was  supporting   the                                                       
original SB 71 or CSSB 71(TRA).                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ARMSTRONG  answered  the  municipality   supports  the  CS, version                                                        
H.                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN   pointed   to   the  chart   that  shows   the  number   of                                                       
projects   recently   nominated  to  the   STIP  in  the  TRAAK  Program                                                        
broken down by region and total dollar amount.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
                           TRAAK Nomination                                                                                   
                           2004 and Beyond                                                                                    
        ·  Central  Region*:     52 projects,  $65.9  million                                                                   
        ·  Northern  Region:     75 projects,  $56.7  million                                                                   
        ·  Southern  Region:     21 projects,  $15.0  million                                                                   
        · Total backlog = $330 million                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
           * Excludes AMATS as they do not nominate to the                                                                      
      state.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.   OTTESEN   informed   committee   members    this  list   does   not                                                       
include  projects  within  AMATS  as  it has  authority  and  discretion                                                        
to nominate and program projects under the federal law.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
He then  referred  to  the  pie chart  Senator  Stevens  had  explained.                                                        
He said  the  implication  here  is  the four  percent  change  to  TRAAK                                                       
would   neither   raise  nor   lower  the   amount   of  money  that   is                                                       
proposed   to go  to  the  two  MPO's  or  the  rest  of  the  state.  It                                                       
would  be  neutral  with  respect  to  the  total  amount  of  money.  It                                                       
would  change   the  kinds   of  projects   that  are  done  under   this                                                       
program.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS  said,  "That  was  a way  to explain  my  confusion  in                                                       
one sentence."                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  LINCOLN   referred  to  a letter   from a  member  of  both  the                                                       
Anchorage   Assembly  and  AMATS  Policy  Committee   who was  concerned                                                        
about  how local  control  of  the  dollars  would be  taken  away.   She                                                       
asked,   "I  know  you  said   the  Mayor  supports   it  but   does  the                                                       
Anchorage Assembly support it?"                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ARMSTRONG   said,   as  AMATS  Coordinator,    the  last  time   the                                                       
Assembly  really   spoke  of the  Enhancement   Allocation  was  in  1998                                                       
and it adopted a 15 percent policy target. He stated:                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
      We haven't   been asked  to  date  at  the Policy  Committee                                                              
      the  10 or  15  percent  question.     The 2004   to '06  TIP                                                             
      (Transportation   Improvement   Program)  is out  for  public                                                             
      comment  so   I  would  be  assuming   that  this   piece  of                                                             
         legislation would ask us and the Policy Committee to                                                                   
      weigh in on the 10 or 15 percent.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   LINCOLN  asked   if  the  Anchorage   Assembly  or  the   AMATS                                                       
Policy Committee have not taken a stand on the 10 or 15 percent.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ARMSTRONG  said  they had  not.  He added  the  Technical  Advisory                                                        
Committee   that  reports   to  the  Policy  Committee   is  meeting   at                                                       
3:00  p.m.  and  this  piece  of  legislation   will  be  brought  up  at                                                       
that meeting.  No one has asked for public comment until today.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT   said  he  could  not  find  the  document  Senator                                                        
Lincoln   referred   to  and   noted,  "I   think  it   is  probably   an                                                       
expression   of the  same concern   that perhaps  Fairbanks   had on  the                                                       
original   bill  that  potentially  shrunk   the  pie for  AMATS,   FMATS                                                       
and  other needs."    He understood   there  would be  no change  to  the                                                       
dollar   amount  under   the  CS   so  the  flow   of  money  the   local                                                       
governments   control  is going  to  be the  same.   He said  he thought                                                        
the CS takes care of the concern.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   WAGONER   asked  if  any   of  these  funds   get  applied   to                                                       
projects  where  there  aren't   federal  highway  funds  used,  such  as                                                       
village  areas  that  need trails   and bridges  for  snow  machines  and                                                       
four-wheelers.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN   answered   yes.  Some  TRAAK   and  CTP  money   has  been                                                       
spent  in the  Bush  for marking  winter  trails.    The department   has                                                       
identified   marking  trails  as a  very important   life safety   factor                                                       
in rural Alaska.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   STEVENS   said   he  had  two   comments.   First,   regarding                                                        
Senator  Wagoner's   concern,  four  percent  should   be available   for                                                       
recreational   trail  access  and  is  in line  with  the  minimum.    He                                                       
questioned  whether   or not  they are  using  two pots  of  money  to do                                                       
the  same  thing,  the  Trail  Enhancement  Program   under  the Surface                                                        
Transportation   Program  and  the TRAAK  Program.    He said  the  TRAAK                                                       
Program  should   be used  for  trails,   snow  machine  trails,  winter                                                        
trails  and  marking  trails  that  highway  money  can't  be  used  for.                                                       
Wayside   and  pullout  expenditures   should   be included   in  a  road                                                       
construction project where they belong.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   WAGONER  suggested   including   those   expenditures   in  the                                                       
overall road project.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS   said  the second  concern   addresses  Mr.  Armstrong                                                        
and  Senator  Lincoln's  question   on AMATS.    He  confirmed  AMATS  is                                                       
going  to  have  concerns  about  this  legislation   because  it limits                                                        
AMATS   to  spending   ten  percent   when  it  has   been  spending   15                                                       
percent.  It  also tells  AMATS  to  focus  on spending  money  on  roads                                                       
and  not on  trails  and  to stay  at  the federal  standard.    He  said                                                       
he  was sure  there  would  be  a  debate  at AMATS.    He continued   by                                                       
saying:                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
      As  Mr.  Ottesen   said,   it's   a  policy   question   that                                                             
      applies,    I   believe,    statewide    as   well    as   to                                                             
      municipalities.     How  much  are   we  going  to  spend  on                                                             
      trails  when  we  have  such  a critical   backlog  of  roads                                                             
      that need to be addressed?                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  LINCOLN   referred  to  similar  legislation   in the  past  and                                                       
some  very  heated   discussions  about   AMATS.    "I think   it always                                                        
came  down  to  who  are  we to  dictate  to  the  local  community   how                                                       
they  spend  their  money."   She  said  she would  be  involved  in  how                                                       
that   piece   of  pie   is   cut   for  TRAAK   for   communities    she                                                       
represents   but does  not  want  to interfere   with  how  Anchorage  or                                                       
Fairbanks  spends  their  money.   It  is up  to a  body other  than  the                                                       
legislature to decide that.  She concluded:                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
      That's  where  I have  a  rub,  is  to dictate   how a  local                                                             
      community  should   spend  their  money  when  in  fact  they                                                             
      do have  a citizen's   advisory  board  to do  just that  and                                                             
      I guess  I  get concerned   when  there's  a memo  from  a...                                                             
      local  assembly   member  and  a  committee   member  on  the                                                             
      expenditures   of this.    That continues   to  be, I  think,                                                             
      the rub for this.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
TAPE O2-05, SIDE B                                                                                                            
2:23 p.m.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS   said  he was  aware  of  that.   However,   this is  a                                                       
legislative   policy  call  that coincides   with  the Administration's                                                         
policy  call   that  roads  are  a  critical   element  that   should  be                                                       
addressed   at  the  statewide   level  and  at  the   municipal  level.                                                        
Transportation     projects   are    a   priority,    specifically    the                                                       
construction   of roads.    This  legislation   is intended   to say  the                                                       
money  is available   to build  roads  but has  not  been used  for  that                                                       
purpose.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  LINCOLN   asked  him  how  he  counters  when   DOTPF  says  the                                                       
federal   rules  provide   a  lot  of  flexibility,   the  challenge   is                                                       
finding  the  right  balance,  and  that the  commissioner   already  has                                                       
discretion to reduce the TRAAK Program.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   STEVENS  commended   the  commissioner    for  already  making                                                        
changes  and  said  this  legislation   would  make sure  the  reduction                                                        
stays  that  way.  Since  the TRAAK  has  been  in place  over  the  last                                                       
six  years,   more  was  spent  on  those  projects   than  should   have                                                       
been  three   or four   times.    One  hundred  million   dollars   could                                                       
have  been  used  for  Community  Transportation   Programs   that  would                                                       
have  gone  to  local   projects  or  to  the  local   municipality   for                                                       
roads.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  WAGONER   asked  how  the  state  would  stand  with  a federal                                                        
audit  if  it has  been  using  more  than the  federally   required  ten                                                       
percent on this enhancement program.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  answered   the  ten  percent  requirement   is  a minimum,                                                        
not  a maximum.  The  federal  government   approves  every  project  and                                                       
monitors  the  program  on  a daily  basis  and  is aware  of  the  TRAAK                                                       
program's   level   of  expenditure.    In  the   federal   government's                                                        
view, states have that discretion.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  WAGONER  asked,   if the  state  wished  to,  could  it build  a                                                       
project using 25 percent for enhancement.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  pointed  out  the  Seward  Highway  project  just  outside                                                        
of  town  past  Potter's   Marsh  has  a  very  large   trail  component                                                        
built into the scope of work with the upgrade of the highway.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   STEVENS   said  that   is  a  good  point;   it  has   a  trail                                                       
component   from  the  highway  construction.     He  asked  if  it  also                                                       
has the Bird Point Lookout from TRAAK expenditures as well.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN answered that is correct; it has both.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS   predicted  that  probably  would   exceed  25 percent                                                        
of the total expenditure.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WAGONER stated, "A lot of wasted money in my mind."                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN referred to the next chart:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
                      Comparison to Other Needs                                                                               
   · Community Transportation backlog = $3.12 Billion                                                                           
   · Ratio of CTP to TRAAK (need vs. funds)                                                                                     
   · Need ~ 9:1                                                                                                                 
   · Funding ~ 4:1                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
He  explained   the  numbers  came  out  of  the  DOTPF   needs  list,  a                                                       
database   that   holds   projects   nominated    by  communities,    the                                                       
department    and  other   agencies.      The   backlog   in   community                                                        
transportation   projects  equals  over  $3  billion.   Compared  to  the                                                       
$330  million   backlog   identified   in  TRAAK,  the  ratio   is  about                                                       
9:1.    The  need  for  roads   nominated   across  the  state   is  nine                                                       
times   higher  than   for  TRAAK   programs.   The  two   programs   are                                                       
funded  at an  approximate   ratio  of 4:1.   Commissioner   Barton  used                                                       
that  statistic   when  he  made  his  judgment   call  a  month  ago  to                                                       
reduce the 2003 TRAAK Program.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  LINCOLN   asked  if  he  had  the  list  of  the  roads  he  was                                                       
speaking about and the backlog of roads versus trails.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN   said  the  needs  list  is  available   on  the  web.    A                                                       
person  can  go onto  the website   and run  reports  and sift  and  sort                                                       
it as they choose or the department could run a report for them.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR LINCOLN said she would like him to run a report for her.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  continued  with  his  presentation.    He referred  to  the                                                       
page  that   shows  two  photographs    of  the  Williamsport-Pile    Bay                                                       
Road.   He  said  it is  "my  poster  child"  for  the  kind of  need  in                                                       
Alaska.  He explained:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
      This  is  the  only  road  between   the  mainland,   through                                                             
      Homer  and  a  marine   access  across   Cook  Inlet  to  the                                                             
      Lake   and   Pen   [Peninsula]    Borough,   including    six                                                             
      villages  around   the  lake.    We've  identified   that  an                                                             
      improved  road  in  this  corridor...   this  road  is  being                                                             
      used  today   but  it's   being   used  with   trucks   doing                                                             
      fords,  not  even  going  across  bridges,   would  save  the                                                             
      Borough  at least  $3  million  a year  in freight   charges.                                                             
      They  are  currently  doing  an  awful  lot  of  shipping  by                                                             
      airfreight.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
      The worst  bridge   among  the four  was  on  the Chinkelyes                                                              
      [Creek].   The   pronunciation    does   not   resemble   the                                                             
      spelling.  You  can  see here  its  condition.    Now  we did                                                             
      fix  that  bridge  just  last  summer   but  we  were  forced                                                             
      to,  because  of  the  lack  of  funding  in  CTP  and  other                                                             
      programs,  we  were  forced  to  use maintenance   money  and                                                             
      the  cooperative   effort  of  the  SeaBees  [U.S.  Navy]  to                                                             
      install  this  bridge.  We  did this  bridge  for  less  than                                                             
      a quarter  million   but it's  an  example  I  think  of need                                                             
      and,  at   the   same  time,   we're   spending   over   $100                                                             
         million dollars on TRAAK that was above the federal                                                                    
      requirement.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS   asked  if  this  would  have  qualified  under  a  CTP                                                       
project.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN   said  it  would  qualify   under  a  CTP  or  the   Alaska                                                       
Highway System.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS   said  this  is  an  example  of  a  critical  backlog                                                        
project.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  said   very  much  so.  It  is a  project   that  has  real                                                       
economic benefit.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT asked if the bridge was permanent.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  explained  this  is a  Bailey  bridge,  which  can be  used                                                       
for  10 or  20 years  with  a little  maintenance.   Bailey  bridges  are                                                       
often  used  in  other  parts  of  the  country.   They  are  not  ideal;                                                       
they  are  single   lane  bridges.   The  Bailey   bridge  has  highway-                                                        
loading   capacity   so  it  is  not   deficient   in  terms  of  normal                                                        
loading.   This  is  an expedient   design,  which  came out  of Kosovo.                                                        
This  bridge  was  built  by the  military  for  use  until  a permanent                                                        
bridge  was  built.   It was  dismantled   and  shipped  to  one  of  the                                                       
NATO  members   and  that  is  where  DOTPF   purchased  it.   The  first                                                       
picture  is  the "before"  and  the  second  picture  is the  bridge  put                                                       
in last summer.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT asked how the Seabees assisted.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN   said  they  had  the  expertise   to  erect  the  bridge,                                                        
which  is  constructed  similarly   to  erector  set  parts.  The panels                                                        
are  ten feet  long,  put  together  for  expedient   military  use,  and                                                       
are  frequently   used   around  the  country   as  emergency   bridges.                                                        
DOTPF   is  looking   to  purchase   more  of  those   components   as  a                                                       
Homeland Security stockpile.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   THERRIAULT    asked   what  kind   of   program   allowed   the                                                       
SeaBees to participate.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.   OTTESEN   said   he  was   not   sure   but   would   provide   the                                                       
information.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR LINCOLN asked the location of the bridge.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  said  the bridge  is  on  a small  15-mile  wide  piece  of                                                       
land  between  the  east  end of  Lake  Iliamna  and  the west  shore  of                                                       
Cook Inlet.  It is directly west of Homer.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  LINCOLN  said  it  is a  pressing  highway  need  and  asked  if                                                       
the communities supported this highway.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN answered all the communities were in support.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   WAGONER  asked   if  the  freight  Mr.   Ottesen  referred   to                                                       
went by barge or by power scow to Pile Bay.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  said  it was  freighted   up the  Kvichak  River  from  the                                                       
Bristol   Bay  side.  The  Kvichak   River   has  been  silting   in  and                                                       
there  have  been some  years  of low  water  so the  barges  have  had a                                                       
very  difficult   time  making  it  up  into  the  lake.  The  villagers                                                        
have  been  pressed  to  air transport   fuel,  building  materials   and                                                       
all  the  things  needed  to  live  in a  community.    That  has raised                                                        
the  villagers'   costs  dramatically.    The  department   did  a  cost-                                                       
benefits  study  on  this  bridge  and  identified  about  a  $3 million                                                        
savings  in  community  freight  and  fuel alone.    He noted  the  Corps                                                       
of  Engineers  will  have  do  some  work  on the  marine  side  of  Cook                                                       
Inlet.     The  bay  this   road  touches   is  extremely   shallow,   so                                                       
shallow  that  it  currently   can  only be  accessed   by barge  during                                                        
the  three  to  four   highest  tides  of  the  month.     DOTPF  is  now                                                       
applying  for  a permit  to  deepen  the landing  sight  this  summer  as                                                       
part of the mobilization for an airport project at Iliamna.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  OLSON  pointed  out  the bridge  has  some  overhead  structure                                                        
and asked if there was a weight or width limit on the bridge.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  said the  panels  are  erected  on both  sides.  The  clear                                                       
distance   horizontally   is   about  13.5   feet.  That   is  important                                                        
because  this  road  carries  a lot  of gillnet  fishing  boats  between                                                        
Homer  and  Bristol  Bay.  The  Williams  family  carries  boats  across                                                        
this  road  and launches   into  Iliamna  Lake  so they  can  float  down                                                       
to Bristol   Bay. In  the fall,  they  reverse  the  trip and  come  back                                                       
to Homer.  That  saves  1000  miles  of treacherous   open  ocean travel                                                        
in  both  directions.    It  saves  money   and  lives  and  requires   a                                                       
bridge  more  than 12  feet  wide because   gillnet  boats  are often  12                                                       
feet wide and are getting wider.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
He  noted  the  department   is  going   to  continue  to  address   some                                                       
other  limitations   on this  road.  The road  crosses  a mountain   pass                                                       
about  800  feet high  and  is  literally  carved  out  of rock.  He  had                                                       
heard  the  road  is  so  narrow   that  some  of  these  wider  gillnet                                                        
boats  being   hauled  on  the  road  have  one  of  the  trailer   tires                                                       
literally  out  in  open air  ready  to  fall off  the  edge.   The  road                                                       
needs  some  rock  cut  work.    One  more  bridge  across  the  Iliamna                                                        
River   also   needs   strengthening     and   improving.    The  Denali                                                        
Commission   is exploring   putting  up  $1.5  million  for  that bridge                                                        
as soon as this summer.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  OTTESEN  concluded   by  saying  the  funds  currently   applied  to                                                       
the   TRAAK   aren't   in   balance   with   other    allocations.      A                                                       
tremendous   reservoir   of  unmet   road  projects   has  already   been                                                       
identified   and, in  addition,  a  backlog  of resource  and  community                                                        
access  roads  is  being  talked  about  across  the  state.  Every  part                                                       
of  the state  has  nominations.  Several   mega projects   costing  more                                                       
than  one  billion  dollars  are  being  discussed.  In  light  of  that,                                                       
DOTPF   intends  to   reduce  the   TRAAK  Program.   He  was  sure   the                                                       
program   would  be  reduced  to  four  percent   as  existing  projects                                                        
are  wrapped  down.  Many  projects  have  been  designed  and  it  would                                                       
be  wasteful   to  not  complete   them.  The   TRAAK  Program   will  be                                                       
shrunk and approach the four percent.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  RON  CRENSHAW,  Juneau  resident,   testified  on  his  own behalf.                                                        
He  retired  from  state  service   in Anchorage   less  than  two  years                                                       
ago  and   is  familiar   with   ISTEA,  TEA-21   and  the   enhancement                                                        
program.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   STEVENS   interrupted    to  ask   if   he  was   representing                                                        
himself or speaking as a member of the TRAAK Board.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CRENSHAW  repeated   he was  representing   himself.  He  continued                                                        
by   saying   the   original   ISTEA,   then   TEA-21,   and   then   the                                                       
forthcoming   reauthorization    was   possibly   the   first  time   the                                                       
concept  of  multi-modalisum    was  introduced  into  the  language   of                                                       
transportation   departments   in the  states.  To  encourage  states  to                                                       
think  beyond  roads  in terms  of  multi-modalisum,   which  means  that                                                       
transportation    takes   many   different   faces,   the   federal   act                                                       
considers   rail,  walking,  bicycling   and  all  of  the  enhancements                                                        
that  go  along  with   those  features   that  make  the  journey   more                                                       
enjoyable.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CRENSHAW  said  in his  view,  CSSB 71(TRA)  proposes   to diminish                                                        
a  program   that  has  become   very  popular,   one  reason   being  it                                                       
implements   the concept   of multi-modalisum.    The  program  has  been                                                       
very  useful   in  small  communities   around   the  state  that   don't                                                       
have  roads  and  depend  upon  boardwalks,  trails  and  rivers  to  get                                                       
around.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
He said  in  1998 in  Anchorage,  the  community  was  debating  whether                                                        
to  spend  10,  15  or 20  percent  out  of  the  AMATS  allocation   for                                                       
enhancements.   Mr.   Crenshaw  participated    in  that  lively  debate                                                        
and   there   was   considerable   support    for  all   three   of   the                                                       
percentages.    The  municipality    decided   on  15   percent   as  the                                                       
amount  to  allocate.  CSSB  71(TRA)  would  be  an  intrusion  into  the                                                       
local   process   that   involved   better   than   a  year   of  public                                                        
involvement and local government decisions.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
The   enhancement     category    applies    to   more    than   trails.                                                        
Enhancements   can include   all sorts  of  alternative  transportation                                                         
amenities    including   the   development    of   tourist   facilities,                                                        
programs  to  reduce  collisions  between   vehicles  and moose,  safety                                                        
and education programs, landscaping and trails.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
2:40 p.m.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CRENSHAW   pointed  out  CSSB  71  (TRA)  will  only  divert   about                                                       
$10  million   per  year   from  the  enhancements    to  other  Surface                                                        
Transportation   Programs.    There  are  not  a  lot  of road  projects                                                        
or  even  planning  studies   that  can be  completed   for  $10 million                                                        
per  year  but  there  are  a tremendous   amount  of  smaller  projects                                                        
that benefit transportation in other ways.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CRENSHAW  concluded   by reviewing   some  of the  recent  projects                                                        
that have been completed with enhancement funds.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
   ·  Seward  -  rehabilitation   to  the  historic  downtown   area  and                                                       
      renovation of the historic railroad terminal, which                                                                       
      benefited economic development of tourism                                                                                 
   ·  Anchorage  -  enhancement   project  elevated  the  road  over  the                                                       
      dog trail and eliminated the safety hazard of the dogs                                                                    
      being hit on Stuckagain Heights Road                                                                                      
   ·  Anchorage-Seward    Highway   -  multiple   enhancement   projects                                                        
      including the Bird Point Wayside with restrooms, scenic                                                                   
        viewpoint, landscaping, parking and trail improvements                                                                  
   ·  Fairbanks  -  bikeway  and  walkway   project  from  Farmers   Loop                                                       
      Road to Pearl Creek Elementary School, an example of an                                                                   
      important project that is not along a roadway allowing for                                                                
      the children to get to the elementary school                                                                              
   ·  Nenana  - walking   trail  with  interpretive   signs  and benches                                                        
      built at the Golden Railroad Spike Historic Site                                                                          
   ·  Pelican    -   renovation     of   the    boardwalk    for    local                                                       
      transportation                                                                                                            
   ·  Skagway  - replacement   of  the  Skagway  River  footbridge   that                                                       
      connects the trail system to the airport and the                                                                          
      construction of a Welcome to Alaska sign at the Alaska-                                                                   
      Canada border                                                                                                             
   · Statewide - Gold Rush historical signs                                                                                     
   · Nome - Solomon Last Train to Nowhere Wayside including                                                                     
      parking,   interpretive    signage   and  stabilization    of   the                                                       
      train                                                                                                                     
   · Anchorage - Tudor Road over-crossing, previously referred                                                                  
      to  as  the  Bridge   to  Nowhere,   has   been  proven   to  be  a                                                       
      critical    link   to   Anchorage's     bicycle   transportation,                                                         
      linking  Campbell  Creek  and  Chester  Creek  trail  systems  with                                                       
      the University   and hospital   area  - this  enhancement  project                                                        
      in  excess  of   $2  million  won   national   awards  for  bridge                                                        
      construction.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CRENSHAW   listed   projects   that   point  to   the  benefits   of                                                       
partnering   with   other  agencies   to  allow   limited  funds   to  go                                                       
further.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
   · Cold Foot - access road, parking and interpretive sign at                                                                  
      the Cold  Foot  Wayside  at milepost   175 on  the Dalton  Highway                                                        
      initiated by the Bureau of Land Management                                                                                
   · Haines and Skagway - eagle viewing, an economic development                                                                
      and  tourism  asset  that  includes   trails  for  eagle  viewing,                                                        
       interpretive sites, landscaping, toilets and a boardwalk                                                                 
   · Cooper Landing - launching site where the Kenai River comes                                                                
      out  of Kenai  Lake,   a cooperative   project  with  the  federal                                                        
      highway,   Department   of  Natural   Resources,    Department   of                                                       
      Fish and Game and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service                                                                          
   · Homer - new trail along the Homer Spit to the fishing                                                                      
      lagoon.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CRENSHAW   encouraged   the  committee   to  look  carefully   at  a                                                       
reduction  in  program  funds.  The  program  has been  popular  and  the                                                       
reduction would leverage little additional funds.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COWDERY  agreed  many  of the  programs  do  enhance  Alaska,  but                                                       
the  available  money   must  be prioritized   and  that  is  the intent                                                        
of this legislation.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  OLSON   thanked  Mr.  Crenshaw   for  the  good  review  of  the                                                       
trail  improvements.   He  said  during  the  interim   an extension   of                                                       
the  bike  trail  was proposed   in Anchorage   that  included  a right-                                                        
of-way  acquisition.   People  were  upset and  there  were  a number  of                                                       
court  challenges.   He  noted  this  bill  would  affect  $10  million.                                                        
He  asked  what  the  court  costs  for  the  legal  challenges   to  the                                                       
bike trail have been.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CRENSHAW   said  he  had  no idea  and  was  not  sure   what  legal                                                       
challenges Senator Olson was referring to.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  OLSON  said  a number  of  people  were upset  over  the right-                                                        
of-way  and   whether  the  trail   was  going  to  be  on  the  left  or                                                       
right  side  of  the  track.  Residents  did  not  want  trail  users  to                                                       
be looking   into their  bedrooms.    He said  people  were  calling  him                                                       
in Nome with their concerns.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEVENS interjected that was in his district.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  OLSON  said  some  people  are  quite  upset  and  lawyers  have                                                       
gotten involved.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CRENSHAW   said  to  his   knowledge   there  have  been   no  legal                                                       
challenges to the Coastal Trail extension.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   STEVENS   said  the  public   comment   period  on  the   draft                                                       
Environmental   Impact  Statement   (EIS)  has  been  extended  to  March                                                       
7 so  there  is  no mechanism   at this  point  for  a legal  challenge.                                                        
He  added  that  he  suspects   that  legal  challenges   will  occur  no                                                       
matter which way the decision goes.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COWDERY   asked  Mr.  Ottesen  to  provide   a complete   list  of                                                       
TRAAK  projects  including   the dates  of  construction  and  the  total                                                       
costs.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTTESEN agreed to do so.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.   JAMES   KING,  Juneau   resident,    said   he  believes   in   the                                                       
importance     of    creating    a    balance    between     roads    and                                                       
transportation   enhancement   projects.  This  legislation   appears  to                                                       
tie  the  hands  of  DOTPF  and  the  municipalities   and  cities   that                                                       
have  processes   to  make  those  decisions.   Every  community   has  a                                                       
different  need,  some  need  more  roads and  others  need  more safety                                                        
type   projects.   This   bill  does   not  represent    the  intent   of                                                       
federal   law,  which  states   ten  percent  is  a  minimum   and  gives                                                       
state  and  local  governments   freedom  to decide   whether  they  need                                                       
more  roads  or  trails.   He  said  DOTPF  indicated   it is  moving  in                                                       
the  direction  of more  roads  right  now.  He thought  that  was  fine,                                                       
but  said  this bill  would  tie  DOTPF's  hands  for  a long  period  of                                                       
time in terms of being able to make those decisions.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
He  said  that  roads  are  hugely  important   in  Alaska,  but  so  are                                                       
trails  and  enhancement  projects.   The Statewide   Recreation  Survey                                                        
found that 70 percent of Alaskans use trails each year. The non-                                                                
motorized    trail   completed   in   Nome   brought   people   out   and                                                       
provided  a  social  activity.  It built  up  the social  health  of  the                                                       
community as well as residents' physical health.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
He  pointed  out  that  major  companies  looking  to  relocate  conduct                                                        
surveys   and  place   parks  and   trails  at   the  top  of  the   list                                                       
because  that  is  what  their  employees   want  when  they  move  to  a                                                       
community.   If   the  concern   is   the  economics   of   Alaska,   the                                                       
committee   needs  to look  at  how  to  attract  businesses   and  bring                                                       
money  into  Alaska;  enhancements   are  a  piece  of the  puzzle.    He                                                       
acknowledged   the  large  backlog   of needed   road  improvements   and                                                       
projects   to  solve   safety   problems   but  concluded   that   it  is                                                       
important   that  communities   and  DOTPF  have  the  freedom   to  make                                                       
the decisions on enhancement projects.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COWDERY said DOTPF supports the bill.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  KING  said his  concern  is  if  another  administration   comes  in                                                       
and  feels  it  is  important   to shift   in another   direction,   this                                                       
legislation   would  tie  the  focus  to  roads.  Some  communities   may                                                       
not  have a  huge demand  for  roads  but a  large  demand  for the  type                                                       
of  projects  funded  through  the  TRAAK Program.   Reducing  the  TRAAK                                                       
Program   by  four   percent   will   eliminate   an  important   safety                                                        
project   that  would  move  children   riding  bikes  on  busy  streets                                                        
onto  a  safer   path.  It  encourages   non-motorized   transportation                                                         
that  builds  healthy  communities.   He  encouraged   the committee   to                                                       
carefully   look  at  the  alternatives   and  ascertain   if  it really                                                        
pays  to  tie  the  hands  of  communities   and  DOTPF  statewide.    He                                                       
said  they  had  heard  from  one  or two  municipalities   but  not  the                                                       
rest of the communities that will be affected by CSSB 71(TRA).                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COWDERY   said  he came  to  Alaska   when  there  was  one  trail                                                       
and  it was  called  the  Alcan  Highway.    He  said  the trail  system                                                        
is  an asset,  but  there  has to  be  a limit  because  roads  are  also                                                       
an asset to the state.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR    WAGONER    moved   CSSB    71(TRA)   from    committee    with                                                       
individual   recommendations    and  the  attached   fiscal   note.    He                                                       
asked what committee the bill goes to next.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COWDERY said it goes to the Finance Committee.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR LINCOLN objected and said:                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
      Mr. Chairman,   I might  very  well  support  this  piece  of                                                             
      legislation  but,  as  you  heard,  the  CS came  in  minutes                                                             
      or hours  ago  and it  goes to  Finance.  There's  no  fiscal                                                             
      note here.  I don't have a fiscal note.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR LINCOLN was provided with a fiscal note. She stated:                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
      Mr. Chairman,   I have  not had  an opportunity   to  look at                                                             
      that fiscal   note and  we  just  got the  CS....   I've  got                                                             
      a number  of  questions  about  it  and  I'm sorry  I  didn't                                                             
      have an  opportunity   to talk  to  the  author  of the  bill                                                             
      prior  to  this  or  he  I.   And  some  of  the  concerns  I                                                             
      still  have  [are]  that   when  I  hear  DOT  tell  me  that                                                             
      there's  lots  of  flexibility  in  the  federal  rules  that                                                             
      there's  a  question   of  what  is  the  right   balance,  I                                                             
      mean that's  what  the  department  said,  a  question  about                                                             
      what is  the right  balance,   I don't  know  what the  right                                                             
      balance  is  because   I haven't   seen  that  list  to  know                                                             
      what  this  enormous  need  is  out  there.   I  haven't  had                                                             
      the privy of looking at that list.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
      And  as  I  said  earlier,   with  the   commission   already                                                             
      having   the   discretion   to   reduce   that   -  and   the                                                             
      response  to that  question  was  we  haven't  had it  in the                                                             
      past  administration    and   that  this   commissioner   has                                                             
      just  taken  hold  of  it,  this  commissioner   is  in,  Mr.                                                             
      Chairman,  for  four  years  and  I  think  that  he has  the                                                             
      ability   to  do  whatever   he  wants   with  this   pot  of                                                             
      money.    If,  at  the  end  of  four  years  that  we  still                                                             
      feel  that  there  is  a need  to  switch  so  that  we  will                                                             
      say  emphatically   that   it's  no  more  than   4  percent,                                                             
      we've  got plenty  of  time,  Mr.  Chairman,  to  look  at it                                                             
      so  I  don't  -  I'm   just  really   concerned   that  we're                                                             
      pushing  a  bill  through  here  when  we  just  got the  CS,                                                             
      when we  just  got -  well, in  fact,  the fiscal  note  is a                                                             
      zero.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
      So,  Mr. Chairman,   this  is  the  committee  where  all  of                                                             
      the work  will  be  done.  This  is the  committee  where  we                                                             
      go before   our  full  Senate  body  and  say  that  we  have                                                             
      explored  all   of  the  options.   We've  scrutinized   this                                                             
      and  we're  ready  to  vote  on  it.  I don't   believe,  Mr.                                                             
      Chairman,  that  we  can say  that.  We  don't  have  all the                                                             
      information  in  front  of  us, so  for  that  reason  I will                                                             
      continue   with  my   objection   to  moving   this   forward                                                             
      today.  I may  very  well  change  my  mind  when  I have  an                                                             
      opportunity  to  look  at  this  but,  for good  government,                                                              
      I don't  believe   we're  at a  point  of  where  we can  say                                                             
      that.   This is  the  only committee   that's  going  to look                                                             
      at it and it moves forward.  So I hold my objection.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COWDERY  said  Senator  Therriault   indicated   when he  left  he                                                       
wanted  to  move the  bill  and  wanted  to be  called  if his  vote  was                                                       
needed.  He  said he  did not  believe  Senator  Therriault's   vote  was                                                       
needed to move the bill.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   OLSON  seconded   the  motion  to  move  CSSB  71  (TRA)   from                                                       
committee.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR LINCOLN asked for a roll call.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Wagoner,   Senator  Olson  and  Chair  Cowdery  voted  in  favor                                                       
and   Senator   Lincoln   was   opposed.    CSSB  71(TRA)    moved   from                                                       
committee   with  individual    recommendations   and   attached  fiscal                                                        
note.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COWDERY  said  she was  correct  this  was a  CS for  a bill  that                                                       
had some problems, but he thought the problems were corrected.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
With  no  further   business   to  come  before  the   committee,   Chair                                                       
Cowdery adjourned the meeting at 3:03 p.m.                                                                                      

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